Re: [tlug] Open source and free are the same [was: Wine and installing of Internet Explorer]

[Josh Glover <tlug@example.com>]

Quoth Stephen J. Turnbull (Mon 2004-06-07 02:16:43PM +0900):
> >>>>> "Josh" == Josh Glover <tlug@example.com> writes:
> 
>     Josh> The definition of Open Source software includes the
>     Josh> requirement that software be free as in speech (with various
>     Josh> definitions of exactly what "free as in speech means", which
>     Josh> is at the kernel of RMS's beef with "Open Source" as opposed
>     Josh> to "Free Software"; for the purposes of most sane people,
>     Josh> suffice it to whip out a Venn diagram:[1][2]
> 
> Both your Venn diagram and your statement of rms's beef are inaccurate
> IMO.  Even rms admits that open source software licenses are basically
> the same as free software licenses.

Can you give me a specific reference?

> The important difference is entirely in the presentation.  Open source
> advocates advocate free software because it's economically superior to
> proprietary software, or because it empowers users and developers.
> Free software advocates advocate open source software because it
> doesn't violate certain inherent human rights---it's a moral issue.

Right, so I was accurate on this point, at least. :)

> rms's beef with the open source movement is that it implicitly
> undervalues freedom, and leads to "backsliding."  He has no problem
> with open source software as such, except that OSS software is far
> more likely to come with permissive licences (not Copyleft) than FS
> is, and he believes that Copyleft leads to more free software in the
> appropriate sense of "more."

I see what you mean, and upon reflection believe that your summary
is indeed more accurate than my own.

> Recommended reading on the subject are rms's book "Free Software, Free
> Society", and Sam Williams's (I think that's the guy's name) partial
> biography of rms "Free as in Freedom".  Search "free software" on
> Amazon, they'll pop right up.  Linus's book is really interesting too,
> although it sheds only a little light on the politics.

I have read both _Free as in Freedom_ and _Just for Fun), but not
_Free Software, Free Society_. I will check it out.

On a related note, if anyone who lives in the US wants a copy of _Free
as in Freedom_ (the aforementioned biography of RMS), I can get copies
from the local computer store's bargain section for USD $4, IIRC, and
can probably mail them out for another $4. So if you are interested in
the book, let me know and we can work something out.

>     Josh> Neither am I willing to run Windows when I have a licence
>     Josh> key, obtained legally or otherwise, because I feel that the
>     Josh> Windows OS is detrimental to the Internet as a whole, both
>     Josh> in terms of security and in terms of standards adherence.
> 
> Just go by the Orange Book standards and pull the plug on the LAN
> card.  Love that C2 rating.  :-)

That only applies to NT 3.0, right? </me commences shuffling through
discs copied illegally during the naive 90s>

>     Josh> In fact, for me, the main reason that I do Open Source is as
>     Josh> a courtesy to my fellow man. In this, RMS and I are on the
>     Josh> same page.
> 
> I don't know if you are.  As far as I can tell, rms doesn't give one
> Italian lira[1] for non-programmer humans.[2]  Their rights don't
> count, except for their right to hire programmers to work on free
> software programs that they themselves can't fix.  In particular, he
> discounts their right to alienate their right to source for sufficient
> compensation (ie, "if you reduce the price enough, I'll buy a binary
> without source, or source without the right to redistribute") to
> nothing.  N.B., he doesn't deny the right, at least he claims he
> doesn't, but he does use terms like "backsliding" and "slavery" to
> describe its exercise.
>
> My own assessment, which is IMHO and YMMV, and is very likely a "value
> judgement",[3] is that rms's advocacy of free software is solipsist: he
> feels his rights were violated and he is on a crusade to make sure his
> rights are never violated again.  He's willing to extend the
> protection of his rights to you, of course, but he's not interested in
> your opinion of what your rights are.

Again, I see what you mean. OK, allow me to restate this: "The only
way in which RMS and I are remotely similar is that we both write
software and distribute it under an OSI-approved licence. Oh yeah,
and our dashing good looks." ;)

May I have your permission to reprint parts of this email, attributed
to you (unless you wish me to obscure your name; your email address
will certainly be obscured), on my website? I am working on a piece
called "The Manifesto of a Pragmatic Open Source Developer". Jerald,
may I also reprint portions of your reply to my original post under
the same conditions?

> Footnotes: 
> [1]  At one point in the 1980s, the paper the 1000 lira not was
> printed on was worth more than 1000 lira at the recycle shop....

Right after World War II in Bulgaria, my wife's grandmother was being
paid every day due to inflation! She and the other workers on the
printing press were paid in the morning and immediately released
for a few minutes to run to the corner store for groceries, before
their wages were rendered worthless by inflation!

And speaking of the lira, when I was in Uni, I had a good friend from
Turkiye (the Turkish currency is also called "lira"). One day (circa
1998, IIRC), he opened his wallet for some reason, and I saw some
colourful money in there. I asked to look at it, and when he handed it
over, I saw that he had two one million lira bills! Now, I knew even
then (in my relative ignorance) that 1 lira != 1 USD, but I was still
quite impressed (his father *was* the CFO of the biggest engineering
firm in Turkiye). I said, "How much money is that?!" To which he
replied, "About $4.50, I think."

> [3]  ISTR Rick Moen had something to say about value judgements, or
> maybe I'm confusing that with his rant on "ad hominem" arguments.
> Always a fun read.  http://www.linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/

Yes, the two are pretty similar, but I think "value judgements"
say more about the person making the judgement, and "ad hominem
attacks" are targetted at the values or personality of the person
*being* judged. A lot of overlap, obviously.

Cheers,
Josh

-- 
Josh Glover

Gentoo Developer (http://dev.gentoo.org/~jmglov/)
Tokyo Linux Users Group Listmaster (http://www.tlug.jp/)

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