Re: [tlug] [OT] A Question About Degrees

[Attila Kinali <attila@example.com>]

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 14:08:55 +0900
"Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@example.com> wrote:

> Attila Kinali writes:
> 
>  > The outcome is now, that the starting dates differ more than before.
>  > Although we have know only two types of degrees (BSc and MSc), those
>  > are even less comparable among universities, because nobody knows how
>  > they mapped their diploma degrees to those (no, it is not even uniform
>  > within a country).
> 
> Sounds messy. 

It is very messy :-(

> Still, I don't think it has anything like the impact
> that secular changes in the structure of the European economy have.

Could you explain a bit what you mean by "secular changes"?
 
>  > Hence i dont think that those who cannot atain a higher education
>  > are fucked.
> 
> That is not what I said.  What I said is that those who don't get jobs
> (corresponding to their educational level) are fucked.  What I have
> been told by French and Spanish labor economists is that those who do
> not succeed in getting jobs have no alternative but to go to graduate
> school or be unemployed (but I repeat myself :-) or work at MacDonald's
> (which is arguably somewhat useful to society, but doesn't pay anywhere
> near as well as software engineering or architecture).

Hmm... I cannot talk about any country but Switzerland here, as i have
very little knowledge about other countries job markets (maybe save
Germany, where quite a few of my friends work).
If you have an engineering degree (EE, mechanical, CS,...) in Switzerland,
you are sure to find a job. Maybe not 100% what you are looking for,
but you will find one. I don't know of any of my friends in any of
those fields who couldn't find a job fitting him within half a year.
It is a bit different if you study, lets say physics or math, then you
are bound to end up in a bank or insurance company, as those are the
only ones that need that many people with that level of mathematic skills.
Pure physics jobs are very rare and math jobs are nearly inexistend.
I also know a few people from architecture and similar field that border
between engineering and craft/art who did take an office job in a
bank/insurance as well. Either because it was more secure than the
alternatives or because of the higher pay.

Of course, if you studied, lets say sociology and greek history, then
you'll have a hard time to find a job within your field and are likely
to end up in a general, non-descript office job. But in this case i've
very little pitty for those, as they choose a field where they knew
that there are hardly any jobs.

> In the U.S. and to some extent in Japan, there are options such as
> contract work.  Much less job security, less to no fringe benefits,
> but the direct compensation is comparable (and sometimes substantially
> higher), and you get experience relevant to permanent positions in
> your field.

Same here. But with one big difference. These people count as self-employed
in Switzerland. Which means they have to pay insurances, etc themselves.
If they want to sustain a business (which most want) then they will
also charge a bit extra for the time when they have not enough work to do.
This makes them about as expensive or often even more expensive then
normal employees. The only benefit left is that you can hire them
when you need them and let go afterwards. But in a country where people
value stability and count hire-and-fire as inhumane and a busness practice
that no moral man would use, people rather like to hire empolyees than
contractors. (Yes, i know that contractual work is not hire-and-fire)

> Japan does have a lot of such friction, more on the side of new
> graduates (who have a fourth option sometimes taken: suicide) than on
> the side of companies which quite happily (until recently when they
> started getting seriously bashed for it) used contract workers.  

I often hear weird and contradicting stories about job oppurtunities,
hiring procedures and first jobs of graduates in Japan. How does
it really look like?

> But I can't see it as a solution to introduce more European-style rules to
> create further barriers to hiring here.

Which rules/barriers are you refering to?

			Attila Kinali

-- 
If you want to walk fast, walk alone.
If you want to walk far, walk together.
		-- African proverb