Re: tlug: The whole affair

["Stephen J. Turnbull" <turnbull@example.com>]

>>>>> "Jonathan" == Jonathan Byrne <- 3Web <jq@example.com>> writes:

    Jonathan> On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

    >> Unmoderated lists and newsgroups, issues like this are normally
    >> discussed in-band.

    Jonathan> If I'm not mistaken, tlug-admin is not a closed list,
    Jonathan> but a list separated for the purpose of discussing
    Jonathan> administrative (rather than Linux/UNIX) issues, so that
    Jonathan> is not really a matter of "persons of power."  Nothing
    Jonathan> is done in secret.  Anyone can subsribe, AFAIK. This is
    Jonathan> a quote from the TLUG web site:

This isn't the issue; that the memberships are different is.  People
who are on A but not B won't see the discussion if it's moved to B,
although this kind of policy is relevant to all readers and posters.
People who are on B but not A don't care.  The relevant place for
discussing content policy on A is A.

For example, somebody (Rob, I think) pointed out that there is a big
difference between a private email and a post, and a bigger difference
between a post and a (quasi-)official meeting announcement.  Doh, of
course, but I didn't think about that, and I would not have seen that
post had the discussion taken place on tlug-admin.

I think that that kind of education should take place on any ML when
the context is appropriate.  Even if the student is (embarrassingly
enough) me.

    Jonathan> "The TLUG-admin mailing list is also archived. It is
    Jonathan> used for discussion related to the administration of
    Jonathan> TLUG financial affairs, upcoming events, maintaining the
    Jonathan> server, and other topics not suited to the main list. "

Yes, "other topics" captures the "moderation" policy, but "moderation"
policy is not very close to "financial affairs, upcoming events,
maintaining the server".

    Jonathan> My suggestion was based on the belief that the Jive
    Jonathan> issue was sufficiently flogged and had grown
    Jonathan> sufficiently removed from the topic of Linux that it had
    Jonathan> indeed become an administrative issue, and should

No.  If it's an administrative issue, then it's an issue of "people
with power" == administrators, even if any one can become a person of
power simply by subscribing to a mailing list.  This kind of policy
discussion should go out of band only when one is advising a newbie
about the rules of the road, or when there is a specific statement
that policy discussion takes place on list B.

    Jonathan> therefore be on the administrative list.  Anyone may
    Jonathan> subscribe to that list and participate.  "Open Source
    Jonathan> and Open Policies, Openly Arrived at" :-)

I am not subscribed to tlug-admin, and don't intend to, because I'm
not interested in the specific topics assigned to the list.
news.admin.policy (if it hasn't mutated) addresses a different kind of 
problem; newgroup content is still normally discussed in the groups
unless there is a moderator.

    Jonathan> Regarding b), the fact that something is pure flame
    Jonathan> doesn't mean that some people don't feel that it's
    Jonathan> unnecessary.

It's not an a question of "some people feel it unnecessary" simply
because it only takes one person who feels it to be necessary to
continue the thread :-)

    Jonathan> I apologize if I gave anyone the impression that I
    Jonathan> thought the discussion should take place among "persons
    Jonathan> of power," but I did and do believe it had become

I posted my response because I knew that, and believe that your
suggestion would have effects contrary to your clear intention.

    Jonathan> irrelevant to the main list, had gone on too long, and
    Jonathan> was showing signs of moving from discussion to fight, so
    Jonathan> I stand by my suggestion that it was best taken away
    Jonathan> from the main list.

    Jonathan> And of course, if this needs any more discussion, I
    Jonathan> think that should also be done on tlug-admin :-)

Not if I'm going to participate, for the reason mentioned above.  So
I'm replying here.

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