tlug: Re: Transitioning to Linux/Linux in an MS World ver2

[tjhaslam <tjhaslam@example.com>]

At 19:04 98/09/25 +0900, ST wrote:

>    tjh> But I have to believe that the problem is distinctly NOT with
>    tjh> the customers who want Word files.
>
ST>Sure it is.  Just like it's free-basers in Washington DC who are the
ST>_real_ drug problem in Colombia.

This is on par with your comment in an earlier post that becoming MS free
is getting the ring out of your nose.  But if that ring in your nose is
what enables you to relate/connect with everyone else with a ring in her or
his nose--and if those relationships are indeed necessary, then I suggest
you leave it in until you have an alternative way of maintaining those
necessary relationships.  I`m hoping that for some people, not for
everyone, Linux could provide that.  As for the above analogy, in *theory*
I agree the problem falls on the demand  and the not supply side, as it
were.   But if you were free-basing cocaine as an adult because you had few
choices otherwise as a child (i.e., it was unfreely freebased upon you) ,
then I would want to take a closer look at the cultural and institutional
situation.  In the US at least,  I wonder how many people, as endusers,
have--at work or at school--a viable option to MS OS, et cetera.
Percentage in your informed estimate?   What would make Linux a more viable
option for at least some people?  Or what might help end the cycle of
addiction, to pick up your earlier analogy?   Apps that could more readily
deal with the production of MS apps, even if that production is nonsense.
Again, not everyone has the *luxury* of being able to be MS free.  

>    tjh> ...  This is not--I repeat NOT--a technical debate about what
>    tjh> is superior.
>
ST>Arguable.  Not because "the customer is right" is false; it's not.
ST>But because it's not clear to me that the Linux community should
ST>expend effort supporting people who pander to the necessary evil.  I
ST>for one won't, although I won't tell anyone who wants to to stop.

Not sure there is *a* Linux community per se; rather, more like an
overlapping collection of groups with related and divergent interests and
goals, agendas and concerns.   Not sure also that the ability to easily and
readily import and export MS documents is pandering.  Don`t see how that
differs *morally*, as it were, from the ability to serve MS files--or serve
webpages to people using MS browsers--or, et cetera.  Am even less sure
that what I have been suggesting would in anyway increase/ratify MS`s
dominance.  And for the reasons I suggested earlier, I think Linux should
compete for desktop space/end-user functionality, and can do so without
`dumbing down` the ongoing Linux projects, et cetera.  

Now, as for you personally won`t do, you already mentioned that you make MS
apps at least available to your students who insist upon them.  I wouldn`t
consider that *pandering*.   (I should just assume the phrase `necessary
evil` does not apply here?)  But what do you consider it, in light of your
own critieria?   I would think you were just doing your job--and doing your
best.   In other words, Steve (if I may), glad to have you on board.

      tjh> . . . yet.  The applications are just aren`t there.  At least
>    tjh> don`t transition a number of standard--dare I say
>    tjh> basic--enduser tasks.
>
ST>Agreed.  Have a Linux box on hand, try to convince your customers that 
ST>they want something better.  But not so hard that they go away :-P

See, you have come around already. ;-)  Have that Linux box on hand, and
have on it some standard knee-jerk office and end-users apps so the
customer is convinced that the Linux box can pretty much take care of all
her computing needs (which it pretty much can), and the deal is closed:
better and brave new world!  Ring out of da nose!  Ooops.  One thing we
forgot.  The x years of files in Word, Excel, and whatnot.  Steve, one
decent `filtrix` like program for mass conversion--or even just a Office
Suite with darn good filters, and we`re there, babe, we are THERE!  Our
imaginary but all too real customer; and John, you, and me.   It`s like the
three musketeers or something--my eyes are misting over now even as I type
this.  `One for all, and . . .`  well, you know the rest.

>    tjh> Furthermore, if your documents have serious
>    tjh> formatting--graphics, charts, and what not, I suggest you
>    tjh> simply don`t risk it.  You`re getting paid to do a job:
>    tjh> client wants it in Word, client goddamn gets it in Word.

ST>DSSSL frosting.  And Word will once again be there with its
ST>non-standard standard, taking 128MB of VM....  But will it do DocBook
ST>right?  Will your client care?

Just a little consumer education, helped by Linux`s desktop presence: the
fact that our client actually--or will soon-- use(s) Linux and and has
become a more informed entrepenuer (Steve: we can`t say `beaver` in this
context).  But MS Word`s a non-issue, my Man! We`ve given it the boot, and
taken care of the debris.  

ST>I don't know.

(This seems like a first).  You`re doing great thus far, my man: stay the
course.

>    tjh> Difficult and even scary as it will be, Linux has a helluva a
>    tjh> better future, finally, as an alternative/option to MS than
>    tjh> as the poor man`s Unix.
>
>Possibly.  But it could very well turn into the rich man's Unix, too,
>if Eric Raymond is right.

I`d settle for both--which given MS`s direction Linux might well have to
become anyway.   

I love this list--I really do.  I actually was in a grad program a few
years back (not for comp sci or anything  good, though), and if I had been
around people who were in anyway as informed, talented, and intelligent as
the average Tlugger, I might be an intelligent person today.  I`m not.  I
But once and if we can all get past the brilliance thing, well okay forget
that . . . . 

ST`s cautions and rejoinders by no means aside, I am just hoping that some
of you will kick the things I mentioned about.  As for the Linux 2000 and
all that,  as Yogi Berra once said (to quote from memory--mine not his),
`if there`s one thing I won`t predict, it`s the future.`

Best to all w/all
TJH







---------------------------------------------------------------
Next Meeting: 10 October, 12:30 Tokyo Station Yaesu central gate
Next Nomikai: 20 November, 19:30  Tengu TokyoEkiMae 03-3275-3691
---------------------------------------------------------------
Sponsor: PHT, makers of TurboLinux http://www.pht.co.jp